Sanguinetti: “I felt proscribed by Talvi.We weren't strangers, I knew my career "

By César Bianchi@Chechobianchi

Photos: Javier Noceti /@javier.noceti

Julio Luis Sanguinetti was born in 1963, the same year that the Movimiento Nacional de Liberación-Tupamaros began to operate. He was 7 years old when his father, Julio María Sanguinetti, fought a duel with Manuel Flores Mora (and that day Julio Luis still went to school). He was 10 when JuanMaría Bordaberry, associated with the military, led the coup. He was 21 when his father became the first president after the democratic restoration with that slogan of "change in peace."

Later, he graduated as a lawyer, was a member of the Colorado Party (first in the 15, then in the Batllista Forum), studied a Master's degree at Georgetown University, and began advising national and international companies. One of his professional assessments marked a before and after in his life: in 1997 he was involved in the Red Crab Case, for which he was investigated for an alleged participation in a fishing concession and a port remodeling project. The investigation, about him, was archived, but being under suspicion affected him, he confessed for this interview: “My status as a son was used to get some income. What revenue? Let's see... it's a 30-year-old story, nothing happened, nothing happened, I never asked anyone for anything. I know what I did”, he said. In any case, he learned a lot about the human condition and today he affirms: “Not everything is worth it. The end does not justify the means".

In the year 2000 he assumed a seat in Deputies, and after the last national elections his name resonated strongly for some government position. The colorado sectors Batllistas and Ciudadanos - then commanded by Ernesto Talvis - faced each other over the nomination of Sanguinetti for a position on the Uruguay River Administrative Commission. "Sanguinetti yes, sanguinettismo no," Talvi had warned, but alluding to Julio María, not his son. Julio Luis confesses that he felt banned and did not understand the attitude of Talvi, whom he had known since the days of Tres magazine, in the late 90s.

In this talk, in his office in the Palacio de la Luz, Julio Luis Sanguinetti(58) also spoke about the management -successful for him- of UTE, about why he believes that the Gas Sayago regasification plant was a "voluntarist" project but “unnecessary” and why does José Mujica not recognize diversification in the energy matrix.

Before finishing, he also announced that in 2024 he will be available to campaign and fight from wherever the Colorado Party sees fit.

-Did you want to be a lawyer when you were a child? Or when did you realize that you wanted to study law?

-When I was a kid I wanted to be a sailor. As a child, I read a lot about the adventures of Salgari, adventure stories, travel stories, you can imagine how much promoted by my old lady (NdeR: the historian Martha Canessa). Then came the coup and the vocation was left hanging from a brush. Let's say that the law comes by accession, I am not a professional of Law. I am a vocational in political science, in sociology. Law is the profession. But I always exercised it from varied angles, I never did court justice, for example. I have only two or three writings filed in court, the succession of an old friend and a divorce.

Yes, I exercised my profession, always linked to others. In my time as a business consultant, I had to manage a little bit of all the areas linked to companies: the labor part, the financial part, the corporate part. My first job was as a journalist. At the age of 17 we broadcast on the radio, we had a soccer program with Juan Carlos Scelza. Then came the institutional exit (80s, 81s, 82s) and I went to Correo de los Viernes, and I went to do some political notes with the "Turk" (Washington) Abdala and other people, and it also coincided with my admission to the faculty.

-Political suck in your house. You were a child when your father was minister of Jorge Pacheco Areco in difficult years for the country. How do you remember those years, and your home in those years?

-I was a child, notice that in 1973 I was 10 years old. Those previous years were lived with great intensity. The years prior to the hit were intense years. My old man did a lot of politics at home, so they came to meetings, meetings, meetings, and we saw him there as the most natural thing to do. I accompanied him to the Acción newspaper two or three times a week. One of my games as a child was going up and down in a little box, which was like an elevator, where the cables from international agencies to the newsroom went up. The day of my old man's duel with (Manuel) Flores Mora I have it very vivid. He accompanied him to train for the duel. Dueling had that thing: usually nothing happens, but it can happen. I think there was a bit of becoming aware of some things, beyond age. I went to school the day of the duel!

I would tell you that I would describe the years before 1973 as intense, and after the coup I would describe it as fearful tension. There was a load of uncertainty... They are the impressions of a child in transit to adolescence. Later I would tell you that I always accompanied my old man on his outings permanently, and he took me to meetings with other politicians. That's why I knew all those characters.

-When your father assumed his first presidency, in the return to democracy, you were 21 years old. Again: How do you specifically remember that year 1985?

-Since the elections of 1984 were set until (legislated) the Expiration Law, to put a date, what I remember is a climate of great joy. There was a very particular boil. I was in college, I entered in 1982, so I had half of my exams at the college with intervention, and the other half at the University without intervention, with the professors restored. I remember them as beautiful years. Later, democracy becomes routine, and they get into partisan things. In 1984 and 1985, there was a great climate of national unity. Then they entered into the democratic routine. And at that time I was a very active militant, on list 15.

-In the 90s you were involved in a scam, the Red Crab Case (for influence peddling for the granting of fishing permits for this species), for which Rear Admiral Eladio Moll and his son Ricardo Moll Grolero were arrested, prosecuted with prison for fraud and misappropriation. You were investigated for an alleged bribe of one million dollars, and the investigation was finally archived, your participation in that act of corruption could not be proven. How much did that episode affect Julio Luis, the person? How much did being under suspicion affect you?

-How much did it affect my life? A lot, especially because you get angry, you fight a little with the world, you feel it as an injustice. Basically it was a dispute between individuals, who had a company, and I had participated along with other professionals in the legal part. I advised the entire joint venture, because there was a company with two partners. But also my advice was for a certain time: for 90 or 120 days. Later the partners quarreled, I was left in the middle, and there my status as a son was used to, unfortunately, achieve legal effects of some kind. I was left in the middle of a war.

-Why was your status as a son used?

-Because when the dispute between the partners enters into a criminal matter, I went to court twice and testified as a witness. And the judge, years later, said that my professional performance and that of the notary public (Ricardo) Scaglia had no qualms, nor was there any merit in anything. My status as a son (of Julio María Sanguinetti) was used to get some revenue. What revenue? Let's see... it's a 30-year-old story, nothing happened, nothing happened, I never asked anyone for anything. I know what I did.

-Did you get a bit excited about politics at the time?

-Yes, yes, yes... then you reconcile with politics, then you see that you have a lot to contribute. I redid my professional life, one rebuilds oneself, one rebuilds oneself again. I developed a lot that today that term so fashionable: resilience. Hardships, bad times, generate the capacity for resilience. I would tell you that today I experience that event much more as a learning experience than as a stain.

-And what did you learn?

-I learned a lot about the human condition, I learned that many people lose their values ​​due to survival facts, you learned a lot... Who are there, who are not, friends. My old man had already told me at the time of him: "The best thing about losing an election is that the agenda is reduced to those who have to be there." That was part of learning. And you learn that (he takes a few seconds to think) not everything goes. You learn that the end does not justify the means.

-In the five-year period 2000-2005 you were a representative for the Colorado Party, you even chaired the International Affairs Committee of the lower house. But in the years before and after that bench, you were not involved in politics. What happened before and after with you and politics?

-Well, part of that departure (from politics) was to rebuild myself as a professional, as an individual who has other interests. I have seen politics all my life as a service, as a contribution. At some point you feel that you may have something valuable to contribute. At the moment I decided not to stand in the elections it was because I wanted to compose myself. Shuffle again, to call it somehow. I redid my professional life, and now, in the circumstances of my return, some cycles came to an end -I'm talking about professional cycles, and some personally- and I understood that it was time to help a just cause. That just cause is the replacement of the parties in government.

It seemed to me that I had to contribute, at this moment, a quantity of knowledge that I had acquired abroad. A number of experiences, a vision of things that could be useful so that the country could re-enter the world. I felt that Uruguay was closing in, remaining inside a capsule, as if there was a weariness in the exercise of government and power. And we had to try to promote the changes that the country needs to get into the first world.

-From 1999 to 2014 you were an independent adviser and consultant for international clients. You even resided in the United States, Ecuador and Paraguay. Your name sounded again after the triumph of this government coalition, there was an internal dispute between the then chancellor Ernesto Talvi and your father, the other Colorado leader. There was talk that you would hold a position in the Administrative Commission of the Uruguay River (CARU). The Batllistas account even tweeted with the hashtag #serhijonoesdelito. Did you feel banned, at that moment, by Talvi?

-Yes, yes, unfairly. We had a relationship with Ernesto that came from the 90s, it was not a knowledge of circumstances. When I participated in the direction of Tres magazine, Ernesto was one of the magazine's collaborators. Ernesto was not a stranger, he knew my professional career. In fact, I was meeting long before he was a candidate. I'm talking about 2016. I didn't understand... I didn't understand (his decision).

-It was said that you had sent him a message saying "short with a complex"...

-I never told him that. I never told him that. That was a press version that Búsqueda published, and it is not reliable.

-Months after taking office, Talvi resigned from the Foreign Ministry and later withdrew from political life. What damage did the departure from Talvial Partido Colorado and his fleeting participation as ruler do to him?

-I can't comment on that, I can't make political comments, given my position.

-You came to UTE with extensive experience in companies, in business management. How do you evaluate the management of the UTE in these two years of government?

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-I think it has been a very good management. UTE has faced a couple of important internal changes, the Gas Sayago problem was overcome, and the plans that are being implemented will allow the company to follow a path of service quality and modernity from every point of view. I'm talking about infrastructure, logistics, and service. The little things, and some big ones, that are being implemented put UTE on the path of an up-to-date, modern company, and that in my opinion is the leader of the country's public companies.

-Above Antel?

-Antel is different. We have an industrial cycle, we have a logistics company, we have a service company: UTE is five companies simultaneously. It is very complex. I am not saying that Antel is not. I say that each of those areas that UTE has implies a company in itself. I will give you an example: we have five or six different modes of electricity generation. Well, how is this cost mix put together? How much can each of those energies provide you? Then there is a logistics company that maintains, and it has to go planning the growth of the networks, because the growth of consumption is continuous, and the improvements that must be implemented so that the service has better quality. There is a very large logistics company. And it is a company that invoices 1,500 million dollars per year, internally, without exports.

-Do you recognize Mujica and his government for diversifying the energy matrix?

-No, I recognize it to the multi-party agreement that was in 2008 and 2009. The change of energy matrix is ​​a multi-party agreement, later it is executed in the Mujica government. The matrix change was essential, because Uruguay had to look at the sky to see if it was raining, and look at the oil markets to see how much energy would cost. And precisely, the multiparty agreement was to agree on the change of matrix. The entire political system agreed, it is signed. The business model that was used for the change of matrix was enabled by the Energy Framework Law that is from the second government of my old man (1995-2000). In other words, the change in the energy matrix was not a flower that bloomed one day, there was a whole course previously established. Marco Energético Law, which also had its referendum. Those who later used it to change the matrix were those who were against the law. It was the previous governments that privatized power generation in the country, right? 50% of the energy that UTE distributes is not produced by UTE.

-This summer there have been thousands of customers affected by power outages. How many of these affectations have had to do with climatic events?

-I would say 80%. And the other 20% are natural failures of the system. There was a sequence of cuts… There are always cuts. Last year we were within the parameters of the Ursea. Weather events affect a lot, it is the main factor affecting the service.

-There were fires in Río Negro, Algorta and Paysandú. There were almost 2,000 homes affected. You said that UTE considered exonerating those affected people from the rates for December and January, at least. What is that on?

-It will be dealt with at the next board meeting. But I would tell you that from the UTE point of view, the storm -which put out the fire- was, for the UTE, much more serious and severe than the fire itself. To give you a number, the storm knocked down 400 power poles across the country, due to the wind and rain, and the fire burned 70. There are complex events: the storm took a 500 (kilowatt) line out of service, the fire did not.

What we have done throughout the pandemic, and it is a policy of this board of directors, is to assist the sectors that are most committed. One of the first directives we received from the government, and which was a campaign promise, was to improve energy costs for sectors that are in international competition. Uruguay clearly had a cost problem at the international level, it had lost a lot of competitiveness in recent years, and had to recover it somehow. Energy is part of the cost for companies that are in international competition. A job was done, and most of the sectors that are in international competition today have a regime of consumption and electricity cost closely associated with the type of production they have, with their harvests.

We have been looking for a tailored suit for each of the productive sectors, because we understood that not all sectors could be considered in the same situation, because not all have the same problems and not all consume energy in the same way: a The winegrower has a 90-day harvest, but a dairy farmer needs a fixed current all year round, irrigators, rice growers, for example, have a harvest (they are dependent on energy because they pump). Each one has been looking for a specific solution. Our internal cost of electricity depends a lot on schedules and network saturation (that's why there are peak hours). Sitting at the table with all of them and finding a solution for each one is one of the successful things we've done. done in these two years.

-What are the negotiations for electricity exports?

-It was exported to Brazil until December. This was a situation associated much more with the Brazilian situation. But UTE was able to respond to the demand, and for us it was a very important lesson to have been able to supply the entire country and also to be able to assume with the international market (in this case Argentina and Brazil) its energy demands, especially those of Brazil that were urgent. Today we are selling something to Argentina. It will be necessary to establish meetings that allow to put together a medium and long term scheme. In any case, UTE today has a theme for export that is associated with its generation sources. In order to lower export prices, we would have to go to medium and long-term planning, different from what we have today.

-And the Sayago Gas regasification plant? "It was not a whim of the boards, it was a conscientious analysis," said Raúl Sendic about the regasification plant. Instead, Danilo Astori said last year that it was "a big mistake." The PwC audit speaks of losses of 213 million dollars. What assessment do you make?

-I think it was a volunteer event, because I think it was unnecessary. Not necessarily include gas as part of the energy matrix. I wish we could have gas from Argentina, in fact, we have a gas pipeline that supplies Montevideo, but Argentina does not provide us with more gas than that for the capital. We have turned on the combined cycle plant, which can run on gas and fuel, but when there is gas. So we have not had large batches of gas for generation; It lowers our costs a lot.

Uruguay was in the process of installing a very important wind capacity. Imagine that Uruguay does not need to add any additional generation source until 2028, because its internal supply is satisfied with what it already has today. Think if we had GasSayago: we were going to generate energy, for whom? I would have understood Gas Sayago if Argentina had entered the business, but that project lost logic the day Argentina got out. Who was going to care about the energy produced with that gas? To Argentina or Brazil, there are not four possible destinations, there were two. Brazil was not in the discussion, and Argentina, which was in the discussion at the beginning, long before the company started, had already dropped out. What was the point of doing that without Argentina? It was an unnecessary business. It is hard to understand why the project was not stopped on the different occasions in which it could have been stopped.

-You worked for almost 20 years in Peñarol, in different positions. Why get involved in football and the club of your love?

-In Peñarol I went through everything. I was a delegate in the AUF, counselor, vice president in 2003, with (Cr. José Pedro) Damiani, president of the Training Commission, and president of the Security Commission that inaugurated the Champion of the Century. Between 1994 with Damiani, after a previous stint with (Washington) Cataldi in 1991, 1992, I returned in 1994 with Damiani and I stayed until 2017, it was almost 20 years. Being the delegate during the five-year period (1993-97) with all the assemblies we had and that famous “goal interpretation assembly” to play the finals was hard work. Soccer is a very demanding job, because you also have a choice every week, and incidents of all kinds. But it is a very nice activity where one makes many friends, it is a cross section of society where there can be all kinds of circumstances and personal qualities, and one learns a lot, especially when one has good teachers.

-Do you have political aspirations for 2024?

-(Thinks) I will be in the next national election. Where? Where the party says

-I was asking you because when political analysts analyze names from that renewal they name Adrián Peña, Carmen Sanguinetti, Robert Silva, and Andrés Ojeda. They don't name you. Are you interested in participating in this renewal of the party in the future?

-Nobody with 58 years can be a generational renewal, and I will be 60 or 61 in the elections. This country got used to old presidents. My old man, in the second government, was my age now. We need young presidents: Lacalle Herrera was a young president, Lacalle Pou is a young president. From Jorge Batlle to the second Vázquez, we enter presidents of sixty lengths or more...

-Your father is a political leader of the government, and he is 86 years old…

-Age does not have to withdraw you. What I do not believe is that we can call it “generational renewal”. But, I was telling you, I'm going to be collaborating with the Colorado Party. I have no other circumstantial ambition.

-Here in your office you have a photo of your father, and in your WhatsApp photo you are with him. What does Julio María Sanguinetti mean to you?

-My father cannot be thought of without my mother, the two are one. He is my father, he is a friend, he is a counselor. We have a very intimate relationship, and a lot of camaraderie. We live together the vicissitudes of things. But also with the whole family, we are a very close family. And today we gather around my parents. It is true that, since this is a “political” office, there is a photo of him, and there is also a photo of the president (LacallePou).

-What is the main advice he has given you for life?

-(Thinks) Think twice.

-Are you happy?

-Yes.

By César Bianchi@Chechobianchi

Montevideo Portal